tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post8386755908252361326..comments2023-10-28T17:24:41.752+05:00Comments on Cafe Pyala: Clueless in CanadaXYZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17120968316026139059noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-72111443503138009272011-01-14T14:36:05.063+05:002011-01-14T14:36:05.063+05:00As an Indian, I love this blog and read it regular...As an Indian, I love this blog and read it regularly.<br />But please do not trivialize Mumbai attack by arguing about journalistic jargon like 'alleged' or 'convicted'. <br />Your reply has a tacit bent towards LET and that is something which gives us immense pain.Indiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-29514214635172291232009-12-17T18:30:09.394+05:002009-12-17T18:30:09.394+05:00What exactly leads Mr. Fatah to believe that...the...<i>What exactly leads Mr. Fatah to believe that...the killing of hundreds of soldiers and extremists constitutes "half-hearted" compliance, we shall never really know.</i><br /><br />Didn't you JUST say above that the Pakistani establishment is hedging its bets while it waits for the US to leave Afghanistan? Or I guess you made that conditional because you don't want to admit that anything this guy says, no matter how uncontroversial, could be correct; but you know its true.americannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-51681700928394525852009-12-12T00:40:03.906+05:002009-12-12T00:40:03.906+05:00You know you've arrived as a blogger when anon...You know you've arrived as a blogger when anonymous commenters come on, say nothing of substance, and attempt to psychoanalyze you by delineating your demographic profile. There's nothing like it.Ahsanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13662937883149553514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-18702570924289409002009-12-11T13:51:06.125+05:002009-12-11T13:51:06.125+05:00Ok. I'm going to say something but please lets...Ok. I'm going to say something but please lets keep it civil; no lynching.<br />I disagree with that bit about Zardari being the only secular politician. There are many others, including the ANP. Since, as opposed to the MQM, it has to actually get the votes, its overt secularim, and that too in the Frontier, is remarkable. The point about the PPP having a national appeal, however, is correct.<br /> <br />But this columnist is dead-on as far as the half-hearted efforts of the military is concenred. I'm a journalist and any journalist who investigated Operation Rah-e-Haq (the media would have you think there was nothing before Rah-e-Rast) would tell you that the army's collusion with the militants in Swat was pretty obvious.<br />And then there are the Khyber Agency operation(s). Operation Siraat-e-Mustaqeem, Operation Daraghlum, Operation Bia Daraghlum and now, Operation Khwakh Ba De Shum and the entire set-up of the Lashkar-e-Islami (not even TTP, for God's sake!) is safe. The IGFC uncomfortably says, "Well, he (Mangal Bagh) is very lucky..." A small motley crew can be tough to catch, but not one big enough to get back to operating a "tax" network in between the supposed operations.<br />If, by way of proof, you want me to provide an agreement between the army and the militants on a stamp paper of Rs 100, then I don't. But, please, as far as this is concerned, all my distaste for airhead expats aside, he might have a point.sahaafi-braadrinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-74599615117044573732009-12-11T04:59:07.306+05:002009-12-11T04:59:07.306+05:00@Rabia:
My point was, as you surmised, that "...@Rabia:<br /><br />My point was, as you surmised, that "no member (rogue or otherwise) of any Pakistani intelligence agency has been charged for Mumbai." The reason for bringing the LeT into it - for whom I hold absolutely no torch - was to point out that since EVEN its members had not yet been legally convicted, the issue of intel operators accused of backing them being held responsible is completely moot. But further than that, no matter what you or I may think of the LeT (and trust me, I would be the last person to subscribe to their ideology), claiming their involvement in <i>specific</i> acts is an issue of libel and journalistic ethics.<br /><br />I'm sorry if I was unclear but your assertion that "high-profile criminal suspects are discussed (and judged) in the press long before they are convicted of the crime for which they are accused" does not confer any sort of immunity to those writing in the press. Discussion that clearly states what is an allegation is one thing and perfectly acceptable. Claiming allegations as fact - as Mr. Fatah does in his piece - is quite another. What I believe on a gut level or even KNOW from sources is one thing, I cannot claim it as a fact without proof. That is why in credible publications the word 'alleged' is usually inserted before any such claims.<br /><br />There are numerous cases where initial accusations have turned out to be <i>seemingly</i> false - one of the most recent e.g. being the Samjhota Express blasts which were also pinned on the LeT initially. (Of course Indian intel plays as murky and dirty game as Pakistan's and there's a whole other dimension to accusations from both sides which one must recognize.) Similarly <i>some</i> of the accusations against Zardari, widely bandied about initially, such as the drugs case, have been disproved in later years.XYZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17120968316026139059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-14546220459777519212009-12-11T02:57:30.709+05:002009-12-11T02:57:30.709+05:00Oh, and I am not related to any PPP parliamentaria...Oh, and I am not related to any PPP parliamentarian from near or far. That was way out of left field.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-471584190373735572009-12-11T02:55:07.819+05:002009-12-11T02:55:07.819+05:00I'm back again. A few things - I did not read ...I'm back again. A few things - I did not read the article but I did read the specific blurbs you posted and I read your interpretation of those blurbs. Since my critique was of your post, rather than the priginal article, I think my reading was adequate but I wanted to be upfront. <br /><br />FYI, I am not Sindhi. I trace my origin to a small town on the outskirts of Chakwal, close to Choa Saidan Shah. I am over 30, and yes, I do live abroad. <br /><br />The point being, as Rabia mentions, it was not just your critique of Zardari (agreed that his lack of conviction was neither here nor there) but matched what at least came across as a robust defence of the LeT (not convicted yet - gimme a break..even Riaz Basra was never "convicted") that lead to an overall impression.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-58618482836556268712009-12-10T20:01:09.978+05:002009-12-10T20:01:09.978+05:00Look if you meant to say that no member (rogue or ...Look if you meant to say that no member (rogue or otherwise) of any Pakistani intelligence agency has been charged for Mumbai, you should have said that. Instead you went a step further and said that no member of Lashkar-e-Taiba has been convicted. Perhaps it was a simple error and you didn't mean to, but that comes across as defending the Lashkar-e-Taiba members who have been charged but not yet convicted for Mumbai. <br /><br />Most high-profile criminal suspects are discussed (and judged) in the press long before they are convicted of the crime for which they are accused. You appear to have a problem with this in the case of Lashkar-e-Taiba. <br /><br />Either that or you just have no clue what you are writing.Rabiahttp://www.grandtrunkroad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-55498737138245117622009-12-10T19:47:08.617+05:002009-12-10T19:47:08.617+05:00You might consider re-writing this little chunk if...You might consider re-writing this little chunk if you don't mean what it says:<br /><br /><br />"Yes, Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives have been charged with the planning and aiding the crime, <b>but they have not yet been convicted as far as I know.</b> Not even Ajmal Kasab, the surviving gunman, whose trial in India is still going on. And while there is ample speculation about whether the attackers received help from elements within the Pakistani intelligence services, no credible publication has been as foolhardy as to claim in definitive terms that this was so. No such burden of proof for Mr. Fatah apparently."Rabiahttp://www.grandtrunkroad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-74379936345044172392009-12-10T19:28:33.140+05:002009-12-10T19:28:33.140+05:00@Rabia:
You write: "your assertion that it&#...@Rabia:<br /><br />You write: "your assertion that it's unfair to besmirch the good name of Lashkar-e-Taiba before any convictions from Mumbai occur is pretty appalling."<br /><br />Er... where exactly have I said that? I know people don't read much in Pakistan but this is getting ridiculous.XYZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17120968316026139059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-26086959089999837712009-12-10T09:49:00.316+05:002009-12-10T09:49:00.316+05:00I have to say that your assertion that it's un...I have to say that your assertion that it's unfair to besmirch the good name of Lashkar-e-Taiba before any convictions from Mumbai occur is pretty appalling.Rabiahttp://www.grandtrunkroad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-59585383522536828442009-12-10T05:02:32.243+05:002009-12-10T05:02:32.243+05:00Isn't it funny how the Canadian expat criticis...Isn't it funny how the Canadian expat criticised in the post and the anonymous critic of xyz share a similar essentialist brand of logic? <br />The out-of-touch expat Fatah believes that the valiant leftist Zardari is being undermined by the Al-Qaeda loving army and its handmaiden the media only because of the president's anti-terror stand. From this rather crude premise is born an article that does not let facts, or any nuance, get in the way of his thesis. <br />In much the same way, anonymous assumes from the start that xyz is a Punjabi, and therefore is automatically anti-PPP, Zia-loving and pro Zaid Hamid. Everything else flows from a single accusation: that of being a Punjabi.<br />Again, silly things like facts or arguments are not deemed necessary once this (now denied) assumption is made. In fact, anonymous confesses to this crime by admitting that he has not even read the piece that is being criticised!<br />One small piece of advice to anon: you are doing no favours to the PPP by adopting this myopic approach. The party whose defence you have leapt to so valiantly, if misguidedly, happens to(at least until recently) be a formidable force in the Punjab and is sitting in power courtesy all those (Zia-loving, Zaid Hamid-worshipping?) votes it got from that province. Idiotic zealots like you will only reduce the future electability of the country's only national party --- that is if your hero Zardari has not already done so. <br /><br />As xyz rightly says at the end of his post, 'Stupid, clueless friends are worse than stupid, clueless enemies'khabardramahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304030819345813333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-41630381999955846582009-12-10T03:14:01.514+05:002009-12-10T03:14:01.514+05:00@Anon1016: One more thing. You write: "You ta...@Anon1016: One more thing. You write: "You talk of proof with regard to Mumbai, but suspend proof when it comes to Zardari?"<br /><br />I have done no such thing. I have merely pointed out the flaws in Tarek Fatah's piece which attempts to crudely whitewash the allegations against Zardari. Zardari spending time (and a long time!) in jail without any final convictions is no proof of either his guilt or his innocence. But we do also know how and why cases never reached their conclusions and under what pretext at least one conviction (in the Swiss case) was set aside.XYZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17120968316026139059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-68465980047360091942009-12-10T02:52:14.122+05:002009-12-10T02:52:14.122+05:00@Anon1016: A-hahahaha! Let me disabuse you of some...@Anon1016: A-hahahaha! Let me disabuse you of <i>some</i> of your notions.<br /><br />"You are a Punjabi" - No.<br />"You come from a family background that was entirely comfortable with Zia and hated Bhutto with a passion" - Er, No.<br />"You kinda-sorta liked Musharraf but were happy to see him go." - Let me think... No. Ok, you may be right a little bit.<br />"You probably also considered the lawyers movement to be this expression of true grass roots support of Pakistan (Pakistan = Punjab)" - No.<br />"...and consider the CJ to be a paragon of virtue." - No.<br />"Let me guess, you also think Zaid Hamid is a nice entertaining guy?" - Oh yeah, and here's the proof:<br />http://cafepyala.blogspot.com/2009/10/wanker-of-week.html<br /><br />I don't know where that leaves <i>your</i> analyis my friend, since you managed to get almost every single one of your assumptions wrong. But let me make a few guesses about you (be honest now):<br /><br />You are a Sindhi who lives in Karachi but considers your hometown in the interior your constituency. You went to English medium schools and probably studied abroad. You're under 30 years of age and belong to a landed family. Since you're too young to be a politician, my guess is you're related to a PPP parliamentarian (minister?), which is why you've taken great umbrage at any criticism of Zardari and other government figures.<br /><br />But what I find really interesting is that you have no qualms about admitting that you haven't bothered reading the original article (it wasn't an interview for one). One would think that for someone who feels passionately enough about the post to attempt a lengthy psychoanalysis of the author, would at least bother knowing what he's talking about.XYZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17120968316026139059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-9638311967380743142009-12-10T02:44:32.399+05:002009-12-10T02:44:32.399+05:00Zardari Seeks to Streamline Corruption, Help Peopl...Zardari Seeks to Streamline Corruption, Help People of Pakistan<br /><br />http://wp.me/pIP1s-OAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1110720279777344316.post-63037286908231213382009-12-09T22:16:52.327+05:002009-12-09T22:16:52.327+05:00Let me make a few guesses about you. You are a Pun...Let me make a few guesses about you. You are a Punjabi, you come from a family background that was entirely comfortable with Zia and hated Bhutto with a passion, you kinda-sorta liked Musharraf but were happy to see him go. You probably also considered the lawyers movement to be this expression of true grass roots support of Pakistan (Pakistan = Punjab) and consider the CJ to be a paragon of virtue. In short, you are a typical member of the same ruling elite that Tareq refers to.<br /><br />I have not even read the original article but your blurbs and your own flawed interpretation lead me to believe that it was probably a fairly accurate interview about the situation on the ground. <br /><br />Withregard to Zardari, yes, he is the only leader of a national political party that has stood for secularism. If MQM and ANP had a national appeal, they could be mentioned. I am sure the Lahore Christian Community Political Association has secular leaders as well, but they don't have much of an impact outside their mohalla. <br /><br />With regard to Mumbai, outside of Zaid Hamid loving sections of Pakistan, pretty much everyone knows what happened with reference to LeT support. You talk of proof with regard to Mumbai, but suspend proof when it comes to Zardari? Very Punjabi of you I must say. Let me guess, you also think Zaid Hamid is a nice entertaining guy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com